Concealed Carry

fortbriscoe · 08-14-2008, 02:02 PM

Understanding laws won't permit it outside much of the U.S., how many of us would pack a Smith .40 if we could, and how would you carry it on your bike (legally).

greydog · 08-14-2008, 02:20 PM

I have a small fanny pack that contains only my little .380 and a spare clip that I wear over my strong side hip. I never open it in public because the weapon MUST remain concealed because if someone even accidently sees it I could be arrested for "brandishing". I also bought a motorcycle vest from Jamin' Leather a few years ago that has an inside holster pocket that will fit a medium sized revolver or autoloader. I don't know if they still offer that vest or not. They're out of Myrtle Beach and carry a lot of neat leather clothing and accessories for bikers, both male and female.

Dax · 08-14-2008, 05:30 PM

OddJob or BobbieJimmy will correct me if I'm wrong, but here in calif a)it's hard to get a concealed permint and b) concealed is bad. I believe you can carry a non-concealed or possibly even concealed gun that is not loaded, but the ammo has to be locked in the trunk and not accessible. (Lot of good that does) So you could legally carry an unloaded piece with ammo in the tbags or something, I think.

pepper · 08-14-2008, 05:50 PM

That's a good way to get shot. Pull out your unloaded gun, the bad guy pulls his, bam!

Odd Job · 08-14-2008, 08:12 PM

Been asked by DAX to comment on this thread.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

OddJob or BobbieJimmy will correct me if I'm wrong, but here in calif a)it's hard to get a concealed permint and b) concealed is bad. I believe you can carry a non-concealed or possibly even concealed gun that is not loaded, but the ammo has to be locked in the trunk and not accessible. (Lot of good that does) So you could legally carry an unloaded piece with ammo in the tbags or something, I think.

DAX...very difficult to obtain a CCW now, with all the influence of politicians getting in the way and all the "do-gooder" philosophy rampant here in sunny CA. You can still get one but you must show a validated proof of necessity to a Chief of Police or Sheriff of the County, ie: bank courier, ATM repair person, etc. The way lawsuits are being entertained here in CA a C.O.P. who issues a CCW permit is sticking their necks way out and none of them want it chopped off, hence very few CCW permits are being issued.

Can't carry a concealed handgun period loaded or unloaded hidden on your person. The CCW laws are very complicated however if you are carrying a handgun in your vehicle it must be separated from the ammo, ie: handgun in a gun case in your trunk, ammo in back seat, use the common sense approach when doing this and don't use the "technicalities" theory. We look for dominion & control and accessibility.

Quote:

I have a small fanny pack that contains only my little .380 and a spare clip that I wear over my strong side hip. I never open it in public because the weapon MUST remain concealed because if someone even accidently sees it I could be arrested for "brandishing". I also bought a motorcycle vest from Jamin' Leather a few years ago that has an inside holster pocket that will fit a medium sized revolver or autoloader. I don't know if they still offer that vest or not. They're out of Myrtle Beach and carry a lot of neat leather clothing and accessories for bikers, both male and female.

FYI...use caution, you're making yourself a "target"...croooks look for people wearing "Fanny Packs" and "profile" them as potential cops, so beware. I don't use a "fanny pack" and hide mine as well as I can. Arrested for brandishing don't think so, at least not here in CA. Brandishing by definition in CA means taking it out of concealment and displaying it in a rude or threatening manner, you would most likely be detained for mere possession of a loaded firearm 12025/12031 CA. P.C.

Gotta run right now, I'll be back...gotta P.T. before it gets too late.....so I'll continue explaning this comment when I get back. Sorry everyone!!!

Dax · 08-14-2008, 09:25 PM

We are anxiously awaiting Part two ... at least I am! BTW, what is P.T.?

Odd Job · 08-14-2008, 09:26 PM

I'll continuing answering these questions in the morning.....P.T. (Physical Training) went for my run

Dax · 08-14-2008, 09:32 PM

Ahhh ... glad to hear it wasn't physical therapy. Seriously.

Freakboy · 08-14-2008, 09:49 PM

Don't let Odd Job fool you. He RAN to his fridge for a beer!

(Hey buddy. Here I am)

pepper · 08-15-2008, 03:40 AM

Now, that's my kind of P.T. ,the more beer you get, the more exercise you do!

greydog · 08-15-2008, 05:00 AM

Here in West Virginia a concealed carry permit is fairly easy to obtain as long as one doesn't have a criminal record and attends the required training. The training focuses heavily on points of law surrounding concealed carry. To my knowledge we have a pretty low crime rate involving guns for that very reason. The bad guys never know who's carrying. As Odd Job said, the law is very strict and if I were to open my vest to show someone my weapon it could be, by law, considered brandishing as the weapon MUST remain concealed. Believe me, there are a LOT of old ladies in West Virginia "packing iron". The law has been on the books here for several years now and I have yet to hear of anyone committing a crime as a result of having a CCP. We do have a lot of hunters who are arrested each year for having a loaded rifle or shotgun in the car/truck, and that's as it should be.

Odd Job · 08-15-2008, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fortbriscoe

Understanding laws won't permit it outside much of the U.S., how many of us would pack a Smith .40 if we could, and how would you carry it on your bike (legally).

Outside of the good ole USA you are S.O.L. The only American Citizens allowed to carry a weapon would be those who are attached to the Presidential Protective Services ie: Secret Service fellas and Diplomatic Security personnel and of course DEA folks and other assorted Federal personnel while on active duty or conducting sanctioned investigations. etc.

As far as packing a .40 cal, probably one of the best "all around" cartridges to utilize, but nothing beats the workhorse .45 cal. I myself carry a Glock model 23 .40cal or a Glock model 21 .45 cal. Just make sure to carry an industry standard firearm and stay away from the "cheapies".

Carry on a bike is another animal all together. Unless you have a bagger your options of carrying it legal sans CCW permit is pretty limited. If you do carry a firearm on the bike make sure you carry as in the above posts, firearm in one bag and in a container and the packaged ammo in another location not accessable to immediate physical control. Also if being stopped be forthright and forthcoming to the LEO who has stopped you and DO NOT hide anything, attitude and cooperation makes a big impression (sometimes).

Civilian CCW laws vary from state to state, I know Arizona has a pretty liberal one where you can actually carry a loaded firearm in public as long as it is displayed however there are many restrictions to that privilage, one being you cannot wear it in a bar or where it is posted. I saw many civilians carry their weapons in this fasjhion.

One story I can share...every year the club goes to Tombstone for an Arizona Choir Boys Fallen Officer ride. While parking my bike in front of Big Nose Kates I saw a "motorcycle enthusiast" walk out of the bar to his bike that was parked to mine. We exchanged a polite head nod and he proceeded to open his saddlebag and take out a belted & holstered .45. THAT GOT MY ATTENTION!!!! He then casually wrapped the belt around him and strapped up, mounted his bagger, gave me another heads up nod and rode off. I believe I mentioned it to Freakboy (did I Freak?) and walked into Big Nose Kates. That was an experience to say the least!!!!! This "motorcycle enthusiast" was wearing some "patches" that were not LE related and I think he left Big Nose Kates because he did not feel easy with the clientel that was entering the establishment.

In my 32-years as a copper I've let a few honest people go who were forthcoming that they had a loaded firearm in a vehicle. After hearng the reason and checking their information they were dutifully advised and allowed to travel on. There is a thing called the spirit of the law and the letter of the law and each LEO has that ability to enforce in his/her way as they see fit, unless they are mandated by department policy or state law.

The best advise I can render is to adhere to your state laws, city ordinances, municipal codes, etc. Use good common sense and again do not theorize, rationalize or justify when making a decision to carry, best thing to be is "legal" and just follow the rules.

For those in CA you can research the penal code from 12000 to 12808p.c. , and for specific concealed weapons laws look at sections 12025 to 12031p.c.
I hope I shed some light on this contested subject!

Disclaimer: the post that I have rendered are of my opinion and do not reflect the standards of all Law Enforcement agencies in the USA and it's contigious States nor those of other law enforcement officers. Opinions rendered are due to my experiences and of my interpretation of the CA penal code and are not be be rendered as factual law or practices.

greydog · 08-15-2008, 09:02 AM

Thanx for the info Odd Job. We could use a LOT more LEO's with your attitude. We have pretty decent Sheriff's Dept. and Highway Patrol folks here and your absolutely correct about conduct and attitude making a big difference in whether the "spirit of the law" or the "letter of the law" is applied in a given situation. I was in the military for 21 years and I treat LEO's with the same respect I do veterans...You guys put it "on the line" every day!!

Dax · 08-15-2008, 09:11 AM

Wow! OJ, thanks for the info. Clears up my thinking on that for sure. Heck with your disclaimer! I'll just tell 'em that Odd Job said it was OK when my loaded piece is discovered. Then they'll back off for sure!! Nah ... don't even own a piece anymore. thinking of getting one though for the house.

Odd Job · 08-15-2008, 09:17 AM

Thanks fellas!!!!!!

DAX....I recommend a GLOCK!!! Love em the first day they came out...the best tactical fighting weapon ever made and also a Glock Armorer! The second recommendation is a Sig Sauer. Calibers .40 or .45

Greydawg..I'm moving to So. Carolina after I retire...gotta meet up and ride the BRP!!!

greydog · 08-15-2008, 09:27 AM

That would be my pleasure Odd Job. Let me know when and I'll board Beavis in a kennel for a few days and meet ya on the Dragon's Back!!!

Where in Carolina are you thinkin' about sinkin' roots??

Odd Job · 08-15-2008, 09:40 AM

Lookin hard at Rock Hill, SC about 90% sure we'll be moving .....now the wife is talking about the Lake Norman area in No. Carolina. Either way it will be in some beautiful areas by some world class Bass fishin lakes...Ridin Hogs and fishin for Hog Bass..two of my passions!!!

greydog · 08-15-2008, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odd Job

Lookin hard at Rock Hill, SC about 90% sure we'll be moving .....now the wife is talking about the Lake Norman area in No. Carolina. Either way it will be in some beautiful areas by some world class Bass fishin lakes...Ridin Hogs and fishin for Hog Bass..two of my passions!!!

It just don't get no better than that my friend!!!!!

fortbriscoe · 08-15-2008, 09:59 AM

Thanks for your insights, oddjob. My preference for all carry is a Kimber Ultra III CDP in .45 acp. It's just too nice a gun to bounce around my bag, however. I legally carry a Glock Model 22 in .40 Smith most of the time. My concern is, can I get access to the Glock fast enough in my RKC leather bag? It has the quick release buckles, but it still seems pretty remote if you have the need. The reason I carry is that my wife and I were victims of a junkie hold-up some years ago in Dallas. It could happen again, and it could happen on my bike, but this time I intend more favorable odds.

Odd Job · 08-15-2008, 10:45 AM

FORTBRISCO....

KIMBER!!!! That's the ultimate!!! I'd really like to get one but kind of cost prohibitive as I spend most of my liquid assets on the bike!!!

If I may comment on your intentions.....tactically speaking....to get the draw on someone you are already engaged with is a pretty risky and challenging effort to say the least, even for us trained LEO's and veterans of the military.

You have already been a victim of some dirtbags actions and is probably still very vivid in your memory of the surprise that he was able to get the drop on you first and your response was suddenly limited, especially with your wife being there. Being on your bike or mounting or dismounting your motorcycle applies a unique challenge.

The best avenue of approach for such an encounter would be to attempt to first eliminate the risk of such contact by "scouting" the area, your eyes and ears are your first line of defense. See/hear and recognize the threat before it gets to you. Second, have a simple pre-planned response to such an encounter by being always congnizant for avenues of escape and to quickly escape and evade to cover and engage when warranted and when available. You can escape and evade or escape and engage..that's your decision. First and formeost if your able too, get out of the area of threat, your not retreating, you're just placing yourself at a better tactical advantage, gaining space increases your time to properly respond. Should you choose to escape and evade and leave your weapon in the saddlebag, 911 is free!

A quick draw and accurate engagement must be throughly trained on to have any effect and think about the problem being compounded if your wife or family is present.

In order to win in such a conflict you must be decisive in your actions, maintain the element of surprise and be overt and violent in your action.

Keep you head on a swivel and ride & be safe!!!

pepper · 08-15-2008, 10:58 AM

OJ, well said. Although I am not a LEO, I did have early Military training, as well as self defence. Having grown up in a tough neighborhood where even simple tasks like going to school, or just running an errand for Mom; awareness, quick assesment of topography, and must importantly, always leaving yourself an out were paramount for daily survival. Quick and intelligent analysis of a situation, often meant the difference between a good day and a bad one.

LVJim · 08-17-2008, 03:37 PM

Good advice OJ, keep it coming!

I did a short stint as LEO and as you know there are "levels of escalation" that justify using various weapons in your arsenal. If someone is calling you names and being verbally abusive, it does not justify pulling out a nightstick and beating them silly. But if you are 5"8" and they are 6'5", have a 100 lbs. weight advantage on you, and they are moving towards you in a threatening manner, then the first thing you reach for is something to even the playing field (i.e.- you know you cannot physically overwhelm him, so you must escalate to the next level) - pepper spray, a tazer, whatever it takes to get you out of immanent threat. It does not however mean you can pull your piece and shoot him dead. That would be considered an "overwhelming use of force", and you would be the bad guy in the eyes of the law.

The only time you are allowed to use deadly force, is when you fear your life, or that of others is in immediate and immanent danger, and you have exhausted all other resources to mitigate the circumstances up to that point. There are times when you skip several "levels of escalation" such as that time when the perp produces a weapon, intent upon using it on you. Then you can (and had better be able to) justify your actions.

The same theory applies to citizens who are confronted with similar situations. You had better be able to justify the use of deadly force before you exercise it. If someone has a baseball bat, and is threatening to use it on you, but you are 30 feet away, you have the option to turn and run (if you are out in the open and they are not blocking your means of escape), again, you do not have the option of pulling a gun and shooting them dead. You can de-escalate the situation by merely running away. That being said, if you pull a gun and point it at someone - you better be prepared to pull the trigger (aiming at center mass and firing multiple rounds as law enforcement is trained to do) and kill the threat - hesitation will get you killed. If you are not committed to follow through, don't do it in the first place! You better have a very good understanding of the circumstances, and the level of force you are justified to use, or you will wind up being a "legal" victim.

That is why I would recommend that anybody who has access to a CCW course and intends to carry (open or otherwise), do so, as they will explain all of the fine points of law that can trip you up in litigation and essentially ruin your life, even if you feel you were in the right and felt justified in your actions. It would suck to have a perp assault you, you merely "wing" him, then you spend the next few years and your entire life savings defending his litigation against you, only to have him prevail in the end, and he winds up owning your house, your car, your TV, and worst of all, your Harley!!! Just my two cents...

Billy Joe Bob · 08-17-2008, 07:36 PM

My $.02,
I have a CCW. While in my cage I carry a Kimber Custom in 45 ACP. While on the bike, I carry a Ruger SP101 hammerless .357. The Ruger is loaded with 38 plus P. In that small short barrel pistol, full load magnums are a hand full. I can shoot the full loads, but it makes it too slow for me to shoot double taps.

Warden · 08-17-2008, 08:52 PM

I have my CCW here in MO. I carry my Glock 36 .45 everywhere I go. I would rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Becomes habit to grab it and just slide holster and weapon into my waist band.

fortbriscoe · 08-18-2008, 05:27 AM

Yep. Got the CCW, the training, and the legal briefing. I don't want to shoot anyone, ever. Just want the wisdom of other bikers about the best and safest carry positions on a tourer.

Warden · 08-18-2008, 08:08 AM

Well in my opinion, never, never take it off and leave it in the bike. If I have to travel through a State that does not honor my State, I take off the slide and put the clip in one bag, slide in one bag and lower in another bag. If I am out and about, I love the ITW holster. Very comfy, sits high enough to get to and will never be seen. A good friend of mine never knew I have carried and I have carried since 05, legally.....

greydog · 08-18-2008, 10:40 AM

Here's a photo of the best home security system to be had!! This is my man "Beavis" and he takes his job SERIOUSLY!!!

fortbriscoe · 08-18-2008, 10:56 AM

Greydog, is he a Mastiff?

greydog · 08-18-2008, 11:02 AM

Yeah....he's a registered Bullmastiff. Not show quality because of the big ears (like mine). He's 27" at the shoulder, 21" around the head with a 35" chest. weighs in on a good day at around 140lbs. One of my best friends!!

pepper · 08-18-2008, 11:09 AM

Remind me to never sneak up on you thru the back yard!